 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
DressageIsToDance
Bombproof!
USA
1295 Posts |
 Posted - 02/04/2010 : 4:46:07 PM
|
I need to know EVERY outcome from EVERY combination possible in the horse world. I'm afraid I'll be breeding them all.
 No worries, not with real horses. Not with horses at all really...unicorns.
I've started an online virtual pet. It's based on the concept of racing Unicorns. The set up is a bit different from traditional horse racing, but then again, we're talking mythical creatures here so naturally it's different.
They are only colored in naturally occurring colors/markings/patterns. I'm almost positive I haven't listed all the potential colors, but so far, I've got 24 options for players, and I know I forgot rose gray and need to add it.
Now. I know next to nothing about equine genetics, but I want the pet's genetics to work the same.
I vaguely know about the roan and dun genes, but I'd like to know how those two genes would play out when crossed with appaloosa or paint, and also when crossed with one another - roan x dun?
I'd also like to know the potential outcomes of crossing paint and appaloosa.
And what about the cream gene? What happens when you cross it with ALL the available colors I have? And what happens if you cross it with the dun or roan gene?
And also, I want to know all the potential outcomes from ALL these colors when they are mixed with one another. Yes, I know there are HUNDREDS of combos, but the help will be so appreciated, and I can offer in return a custom colored unicorn pet. 
Black
Dark Bay
Blood Bay
Light Bay
Seal Brown
Chestnut/Sorrel
Liver Chestnut
Flaxen Chestnut
Strawberry Roan
Blue Roan
Buckskin
Dominate White
Silver Dapple
Champagne
Wild Bay (Pangare)
Palomino
Gray
Fleabitten Gray
Dapple Gray
Perlino
Cremello
Red Dun
Grullo
Bay Dun
Rose Gray
|
|
|
Gallopracer
Bombproof!
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 5:16:23 PM
|
| There's a really good book that could help you. We have it and I'd be happy to relay info if you want to pm me we can do a call and I'd tell you as much as I can or you could see if your library has the book. Its called "Equine Genetics and Selection Procedures". |
**Unless you are George Strait or GOD, remove your boots before entering!** |
 |
|
|
JB
Moderator
15166 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 5:26:57 PM
|
LOLOLOL!!! I don't think you realize what you've asked
You've listed gray, fleabitten, dappled, and rose as all different colors, but they are only different presentations of the same thing - gray. You've listed chestnut/sorrel and liver chestnut, but again they are just different shades of chestnut. Same with the dark/blood/light bay - all still bay.
Here's a primer:
black is dominant, and expressed as E. Not-black (aka red) is recessive, and is expressed as e. This means a black-based horse is either Ee or EE, and a red-based horse is ee. That's IT as far as bases - black or red.
Everything else is a modifier of some sort.
Agouti restricts black pigment to the points - mane/tail, and lower legs. Regular Agouti (A) makes a black horse bay. At is brown, and A+ is wild bay. Agouti has zero effect on red-based colors since there's no black pigment to restrict.
The dilution genes are champagne, cream, and dun (and I guess Silver would be there too, though it works a bit differently).
Cream turns bay to buckskin, chestnut to palomino, black to smoky black, brown to smoky brown. In double doses it makes perlino, cremello, smoky cream, and don't think there's an official name for double-dilute brown, respectively.
Dun turns bay to (bay) dun, chestnut to red dun, and black to grulla. Double doses don't change anything further.
Champagne turns bay to amber champagne, chestnut to gold champagne, black to classic, brown to sable. Double doses don't change anything.
Silver makes silver bay and silver dapple for bays and black. It does not affect red-based colors.
Flaxen doesn't show up on black-based colors, and varies hugely in presentation on red-based colors, from being merely a little lighter than the body color, to being practically white.
Roan is another modifier which can also vary hugely in presentation, from very little body white to practically all white in the body.
Gray makes ANY color turn gray/white.
Then there are the patterns - pinto patterns and appy patterns. They are entirely separate from color.
Tobiano nearly always presents some amount of white, even if it's just high white legs and a spot on the neck or rump. But the 3 Overo patterns - Splash, Frame, Sabino - don't have to show any white, or they can show tons of white, or anything inbetween.
the appy pattern is broken into characteristics vs the spotting pattern, and what you see depends on what combination you have. appaloosaproject.com/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=1&MMN_position=5:5 is the best site right now for laying tha tall out.
NOW comes the fun part.
See all that above? They can ALL exist at once. I mean, a black-based horse can have silver and dun and tobiano and splash and frame and champagne and appy spots, AND he can turn gray on top of that.
Now do you see what you've asked? LOL |
Keep your voice soothing and low - even when things get western |
|
|
|
DressageIsToDance
Bombproof!
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 8:43:12 PM
|
I see what I've asked...LOL! Definitely. It's VERY interesting though. I love genetics.
The pet is fairly simple, and there are some younger children playing, and I don't want to make it so complicated it's not fun. I think I can come up with a simplified version of genetics based on what you posted --- it was quite helpful.
And you have also listed plenty of colors I didn't consider (and a couple I didn't know existed!). I don't know if I will add those to the color list. It would just further add to my confusion. "Hmm, what does chestnut and amber champagne make???" (STUMPED!) LOL.
So, a more simple question, is champagne a gene or a color?
Gallopracer, that might be helpful to, I'll PM you later on.
All in all, I think my brain may have just exploded! Perhaps it would be an easier road to just add all the colors I just discovered from you, and in breeding make up my own genetic system for unicorns. They're mythical creatures, what's to say their genetic system doesn't work differently in colors? ROFL!
|
|
|
|
JB
Moderator
15166 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 10:42:50 PM
|
Champagne is the gene. What color it makes depends on whether it come on a black, bay, chestnut, or brown horse (or smoky black, buckskin, palomino, smoky brown, etc)
As for "what does chestnut and amber champagne make" - this gives you an idea of the possibilities of all the other crosses:
chestnut is homzogyous recessive red - ee.
Amber champagne is champagne on bay. But bay can be EEAA, EeAA, EeAa, or EEAa
What this boils down to is the possibility of black, bay, chestnut, classic champagne, amber, or gold. Certain possibilities are ruled out if either parent is known to be homozygous for a certain gene. For example, if one parent is homozygous black, no red-base foal can ever be produced.
here is a decent coat color calculator based on the parents' colors
animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp
The trouble is if you don't know whether the trait (ie black) is homozygous or not, so not knowing skews things, but at least it's a decent start  |
Keep your voice soothing and low - even when things get western |
|
|
|
DressageIsToDance
Bombproof!
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 11:18:07 PM
|
The unicorns won't carry or be homozygous...tis' only a virtual pet, and I do them by hand and frankly, I don't feel like keeping up with who carries what in what may soon be a crop of 500+ of these guys! 
It's basically going to go what mother shows x what father shows = baby. And that calculator is AMAZING. You are my hero. I think I can use that to determine foal colors. And for "test breeding" it would be SO much easier to refer my customers there than to write a huge page myself explaining genetics that I'm not necessarily qualified to explain!
Well, I learned a few things today! |
|
|
|
JB
Moderator
15166 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 11:28:23 PM
|
| Excellent! |
Keep your voice soothing and low - even when things get western |
|
|
|
NCSUeventer
Weanling
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 2:18:25 PM
|
Well JB, you pretty much rocked this post. Totally bringing me back to some genetics class right there!
I think JB said just about as much detail as you can, but I'm going to say just a bit more (less genetics) just to throw it out there and to refresh my own memory :) Forgive me if I repeat things from previous post.
First off, you cannot breed for face or leg markings. They are just not predictable (too bad).
As said, black is the most dominant color. Bay is next (this applies to all breeds). Black color variations refer to fading or non-fading black (JB went into this).
Chestnut is the least dominant color in all breeds. Liver chestnut means each hair shaft is the exact same color; chestnut means that the hair shaft varies in yellow and red tones.
Gray is a dominant gene, so if the horse has the gray gene, it WILL be gray. At least one parent had to be gray. Horses start off any color except gray and they turn lighter over time (time varies greatly per horse).
Roan horses are more common in stock type horses (Quarter Horses, etc) so I don't know what the rules are regarding unicorns.. haha. However, you can never mate 2 roans!! The embryo will die in utero.
Of course, there's also the lethal white effect.
Cremello bred with a chestnut will always produce a palomino.
Palomino bred with a bay with usually produce a buckskin.
I don't know about appaloosa breeding and heritance, but it can be applied to any base color.
Hope that helps! Good luck! |
|
|
|
JB
Moderator
15166 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 5:30:19 PM
|
Correction on the Roan - it's all but proven now that there is at least 1 version of Roan that is not homozygous lethal. The Hancock line of QH's has "proven" this. There are enough of those who have produced nothing but Roans with non-roan partners to all but prove they are homozygous Roan
Palomino to Bay can produce bay, black, chestnut, buckskin, smoky black, or palomino. Without knowing the Agouti status of the palomino, the safest assumption is Aa. The bay is A?, and more likely than not is Aa. Obviously their status could be AA, and the pali could be aa, but... Also, the bay's extension status could be Ee, and more likely than not is (again, the most likely assumption without knowing anything else). So, it's not at all unusual to produce a red-based horse from this cross (and would be a 50/50 shot if the bay is Ee). Even if bay is produced as the "base", it's still a 50/50 shot at producing a dilute. So, buckskin really isn't the most common outcome of palomino x bay It can't be any more than 50% of the time.
Another side note regard white production, just as fun information: Black-based colors tend to suppress the presentation of the Overo and Appy white patters. All else equal, a black-based horse will show less white than a red-based horse. Obviously this isn't something that always happens, but if you keep that in mind when you're looking at horse with non-Tobiano white patterns (splash, frame, sabino, appy, dominant white), *especially* if you're looking at families with both red- and black-based offspring, you'll see it pretty clearly. |
Keep your voice soothing and low - even when things get western |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| NC Horse News Message Board |
© 1999-2006 North Carolina Horse News. Powered by RTPweb.com. |
|
|
New Page 1
|
___________________
Sponsored Links
Effortless Cooperation Clinics--Kids 4 Horses Call 919-724-6296
Email
- -
Website
|
John Lyons Trainer Free
Consults!
Guaranteed Results!
Email / Website
|
|
Genetics: Markings, Patterns, Colors! Help!
